V.Location

Brian Somers brian at Awfulhak.org
Fri Jul 14 21:42:18 BST 2000


I find it difficult to understand why someone of your experience 
would publicly equate the UKUG's social events with a bunch of 
beer-swilling pavement artists.

I have attended most of these events, and none have been anything 
less than completely focused on FreeBSD.  The pub/restaurant venue 
is chosen because it's an informal common ground where people can 
meet and socialise.

I can only guess that your intent was to say that you're glad to see 
the UKUG maturing into something more than a casual interest group.  I 
would wholeheartedly agree with this.  We are living in interesting 
times where FreeBSD in the UK is primed to become much bigger and more 
prominent than it's been before.

> Hello Simon and Tony,
> 
> I am writing because you both now appear to understand what is wrong with
> this list.
> 
> I am a professional freelance Unix and Internet consultant, with
> experience spanning more than thirty years. I provide services to a number
> of ISPs and commercial clients. I use several versions of Debian
> Gnu/Linux, FreeBSD and BSDi on different machines in various parts of the
> world.
> 
> Most of the seasoned veteran professionals I personally know are all
> female. However when we try to offer the fruits of our experience on any
> of the user lists, we tend mostly to either get ignored or attract
> appalling flames and sexual propositions from young males who were born
> long after we became seasoned veterans.
> 
> The freebsd-users list does not help in this, with its "Beer and Curry"
> clique appearing to totally dominate any discussion. Some time ago I
> worked out that it was best to consign any mail containing the words
> "beer" and "curry" straight to /dev/null.
> 
> I find the general ethos in the freebsd world so embarassing that I do not
> like mentioning the name "Freebsd" to my commercial clients, preferring to
> refer to it as "Berkley UNIX" instead. The ethos as seen by myself and
> other women is that of teenage boys with all the naivity of youth, getting
> drunk on lager, filling up with curry, and then as all women know probably
> being sick on the pavement. The name "FreeBSD" tends to conjure up the
> image of little pools of vomit in the street!
> 
> The "Beer and Curry Clique" is alienating a major sector of the Unix/Linux
> world; in the same way that the tedious and irritating "Computer Games
> Cliques" drove so many women away from computing in the early Nineties.
> Even the very professional Debian project tends to put women off with the
> amount of flaming on the developers' lists.
> 
> Please try and make this list more attractive to the older seasoned
> professionals by removing the "Young Lad" image. Please also remember that
> us veterans very rarely ask questions on these kind of lists because the
> kind of queries we see on the lists are the simple little problems which
> we normall solve in a moment due to our enormous wealth of experience;
> which is why those of us old enough to be your mothers or grandmothers can
> offer some very useful advice, even if we do not know the latest slang.
> 
> 
> Helen McCall
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> On Fri, 14 Jul 2000, Simon Clayton wrote:
> 
> > Hi Simon, I felt the need to mention in all probability without the little
> > gathering in Newcastle, manchester, Glasgow and other places over the last
> > few years, that can in the eyes of some be described as a piss up, the
> > meeting in OXFORD would perhaps have not taken place.
> > It takes many a muckle to make a mackle.
> > 
> > My comments were not intended in any way as criticism, just observations
> > from someone new to the group.  I realise that the group is growing and
> > evolving, it's just that the whole "friendlyness" that is obvious within the
> > group can seem like a click of friends
> > 
> > You also wrote
> > As you say, and I agree with you it can be improved on, are you willing to
> > help ?
> > 
> > I will try my best, let me know what I could do.
> > 
> > Simon
> >   -----Original Message-----
> >   From: jimsinn007 [mailto:jimsinn007 at netscapeonline.co.uk]
> >   Sent: 14 July 2000 10:48
> >   To: Simon Clayton; freebsd-users at uk.freebsd.org
> >   Subject: V.Location
> > 
> > 
> >   </snip>
> > 
> >   I agree totally - when I first joined this list I got two impressions
> > 
> >   1.  Nothing much happens on it
> > 
> >   2.  The Newcastle meet was a bunch of mates going for a piss up!
> > 
> >   I'm sure some people will disagree but that is what I thought.  When
> >   the talk started of the Oxford meet I started to get more interested
> >   as it sounded a whole level more professional.
> > 
> >   I also think that -questions is far too busy for an average IT
> >   professional, there are a LOT of mails on that list and I actually
> >   stayed subscribed for a couple of months but then got bored with
> >   the questions which had no relevance to me.  This is an eternal
> >   problem, when I used to read the Novell Instructors forum you got a
> >   lot of people asking stupid questions which again meant that I stopped
> >   reading the list.
> > 
> >   My point is that firstly the UKUG list is valid and valuable but IMHO
> >   if it gets too busy people will unsubscribe - therefore, we also need
> >   to have a UKUG-questions list where we can start a more active UK
> >   community.
> > 
> >   Just my two penneth!
> > 
> >   Simon Clayton
> > 
> >   Hi Simon, I felt the need to mention in all probability without the little
> > gathering in Newcastle, manchester, Glasgow and other places over the last
> > few years, that can in the eyes of some be described as a piss up, the
> > meeting in OXFORD would perhaps have not taken place.
> >   It takes many a muckle to make a mackle.
> > 
> >   Do not be taken in by the
> >   snip********
> >   the talk started of the Oxford meet I started to get more interested
> >   as it sounded a whole level more professional.
> >   You would no doubt rush out to buy a loaf of Hovis bread as it looked more
> > Healthy. (I hope not)
> >   The point is quite simple , this list has been set up on a shoe string
> > budget, it is hosted @ manchester , its aim was to help. It has grown alot
> > over the last few years and the topics covered  have widened. The logical
> > next step is to have or ask for regional co-ordinators who will help with
> > input , meetings and promotional events.
> > 
> >   snip.
> >   My point is that firstly the UKUG list is valid and valuable but IMHO
> >   if it gets too busy people will unsubscribe - therefore, we also need
> >   to have a UKUG-questions list where we can start a more active UK
> >   community.
> > 
> >   As you say, and I agree with you it can be improved on, are you willing to
> > help ?
> >   Tony Watson : Newcastle

-- 
Brian <brian at Awfulhak.org>                        <brian@[uk.]FreeBSD.org>
      <http://www.Awfulhak.org>                   <brian@[uk.]OpenBSD.org>
Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour !








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